Personal Development & Systemic Change | Exploring an Intersection

often we are operating from influences outside

ourselves and it's very unconscious and it's often even misaligned with

our values, and yet we don't know, we're operating, we're practicing.

Every day in, things that are misaligned with our values, right?

And so if we're not aware of that, if we're not understanding those influences,

then we are, we stay unconscious about all the ways that we are doing things

that are misaligned with our values.

And so I think that's a really important conversation piece here too.

Yeah.

And I mean, it's.

. Interesting.

Like you said, there's so many layers and we can continue to

become more and more aware.

But what it all kind of comes down to for me is how powerful that

awareness is for self-compassion and compassion towards others.

If you know there is something deep inside of you

that is yearning to be seen, to be known, and to have expression.

If there's something you need to reclaim and remember: maybe it's your

power or your purpose, your gifts.

This is the podcast for you.

Welcome to Reclaiming Ourselves.

I'm your host, Sonya Stattmann and I'm honored to have three amazing

co-hosts, Laura Shook-Guzman, Belinda Haan, and Emily Soccorsy, here with

me on this journey to self discovery.

Every week we're gonna help you unravel and remember what it means to reclaim

yourself, to own who you are, to recognize your innate worth and greatness.

Now this podcast is a deep dive into self-development,

healing, and empowerment.

So hold on.

Here we go.

welcome back to Reclaiming Ourselves.

I'm really excited today to talk a little bit about a topic that is

kind of near and dear to my heart, and so of course I brought Laura on

with me because we have such a great time at kind of unpacking these big

topics and , the spontaneous flow of, you know, what will kind of unfold.

I think that's what makes this podcast so magic is that we don't plan things.

We don't, try to figure out what questions we're gonna ask.

It's very spontaneous and we kind of see where these conversations go.

And today I wanted to talk a little bit about something I've been exploring a.

In my work, in myself, and it's this idea that there is an intersection

between personal and self development and also the transformation that we

need to make in the world, right?

When we think about reclaiming ourselves, we often have this idea that there's

all this burden on us that we've gotta change, that we've gotta transform that

it's our limitations that we need to fix.

And we don't always understand that there's a much bigger picture and there's

this, intersection and bidirectional relationship between our personal

selves and the bigger world self.

Right?

And so that's kind of what I wanna unpack and talk about, because I don't think

we can talk about reclaiming ourselves without the context of the bigger picture.

So what do you think, Laura?

Welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And you know, I just wanna comment that I love that about our conversations is

that they flow and they aren't scripted.

And so we just kind of get to ride the magic of, you know, whatever shows up.

And I think that, you know, you're bringing such an important topic to

light for many people who are wanting.

To grow and change on a personal level.

They often forget that, yeah, you're not existing within a vacuum.

You do interact with this world around you.

And some of the aspects of our world encourage that level of curiosity and

exploration and, and human development.

And then there's other aspects of our modern day world that is

very, , counter to those efforts and like a lot of separation or sense

of, you know, just kind of losing.

Our way and further creating doubts, you know, as we sort of look around,

in the universe and think, who am I and who am I to create this change?

But I think it's a message of hope that, like traditionally in, in the

field of psychology, we, we think about systems, you know, so that we can,

develop interventions and we can be more, you know, understanding of like

everything that's impacting the human.

And sometimes that scene is like, here's all of these, um, stressors,

you know, in the environment that we need to be aware of.

But I also think it's a message of hope and that's like, look at all

the things that are maybe conspiring to help the human development

help us all as the species evolve.

If we take up those.

So, yeah, I think it's a really interesting one,

to explore.

it's a complex topic, there's no kind of,

um, very simple explanation.

You know, we are as an individual being impacted by the systems around us, and

that includes our family system, right?

Our culture, our community.

The way the world is society, right.

the organizational systems like government and, I mean all the things that kind

of impact us and education, Yes.

And all the things kind of impact us and shift and change things,

and we're being influenced by all of those things just as all those

things are being influenced by us.

And so I think it's this really interesting.

Thing to look at.

Traditionally, you know, as I've been studying a lot of, um, sort of traditional

things around transformation, both organizational and social justice, and

also, you know, personal development and personal transformation, typically

there's the separation between the individual or, kind of the organization.

And so you see in the individual, , there's a lot of work on how we feel,

what we need to shift inside ourselves, and we don't always look at it in the

context of the bigger environment.

And same with like social justice platforms or things that are looking

at, bigger organizational changes.

We look at the organization.

But we don't often provide support for the personal development.

Right.

So I think there's this, this really interesting kind of dissection

right now in transformation.

And you know, I guess this is quite interesting to me because I

do a lot of organizational work in like in terms of transformation.

And I do a lot of personal development work in terms of transformation, and

I think you know, I'm watching where a lot of organizations have not taken

any interest or, uh, priority in supporting the individual transformation

within, which is very, very important.

And I see that a lot of individuals are not understanding how that, you know,

organization or the bigger systems are impacting their transformation.

What do you think about that disconnection, Laura

Yeah, I agree.

I think that there has been, um, traditionally a lot of disconnection

historically, and that kind of, and it continues, you know, I think on

one hand it's this locus of control or this like illusion that for the

individual, they feel like, especially in a large organization, that they

don't have control over that, or they don't have much influence.

So they put all of their, exon basket, so to speak, of like, Well, what can I do?

You know, I'm gonna be the better person.

I'm going to work on myself.

Like, it doesn't matter, you know?

Everything around me is, um, doing and saying I can still do whatever it is.

It's, you know, in my intention and to a certain extent, That's true.

There's individual agency, so you don't have to wait for an

organization to give you permission.

You can start being that change from within, but it's really important

to realize that if that organization is going counter, if that system

is going counter to your personal goals, then you're gonna be getting

a lot of friction, you along the way.

In which that organization or that system keeps pushing back.

and then, you know, I think what I see with my clients in therapy is

then a fatigue, a discouragement, and a personalization of things

like, what's wrong with me because I can't, get to point A or point B.

And it's like, guess what?

There's a whole other system here that's possibly pushing back.

On that progress that you're trying to make as an individual.

So let's be careful not to just personalize that.

Let's look at, well, what could the organization, what could be

that larger organizing system?

What could it.

Be doing that's prohibiting or supporting your personal growth.

And so let's look at it from a place of compassion.

Like, Oh, I'll have greater compassion for myself cuz I

realize that it's challenging.

Or I have greater insight also into like, Oh, that's right.

What if I brought to the team?

This question of how about all of us are being negatively impacted by

this organizational component, and what if we all decided to change

that to see what would happen for us individually and then collectively?

I think it's a fascinating question, right?

Yeah.

and I think.

When we're talking about reclaiming ourselves, there's this, you know,

incredible self-awareness, right?

This is a lot of what we talk about in these podcasts, right?

And these episodes is like, you know, there's, there's always this underlying

idea of self-awareness, how powerful self-awareness is in and of itself.

And so I think sometimes when you start to bring up this kind of topic about

the intersection, People start to feel like overwhelmed or like, I don't know

what to do about that and I know what to do about the bigger picture or you

know, I don't know how to change things.

But really there's this power and self awareness to recognize that we

are being impacted by systems, you know, in a way beyond our control.

to understand that, to have the self-awareness, I do think it

brings a lot more self-compassion.

Right.

And self-understanding.

And like, it lets us off the hook.

Cuz I feel like in the personal development realm and you know, when

we're, when we're looking to, to change and transform ourselves, often

we take burdens on that aren't ours.

Often we try to own and be responsible for things that are not ours.

And so I think that when we have context, when we're able to, to kind of open

our lens, to recognize there is bigger influences here that are affecting us,

and we can look at that, we can understand that we can have compassion for that.

And we can unburden ourselves with some of that responsibility.

So, you know, this isn't a topic of just what do I do.

Right.

And I think, you know, when we talk about social justice and things

like that, oftentimes there's um, a lot of activism in that.

There's a lot of like, I gotta get up and do something.

And yes, when we are resourced again, when we are, in a position that we are

resilient and we're able to navigate and take action and do the things

that need to be done to change the.

In our world, right, that are oppressive and that are holding back, these

brilliant people and who are not equal, not good, not, you know, just

when we, we do have to go and actively change those, but it starts with this

awareness that there's even a connection.

And I think when we have that, we start to, to recognize and even resource

ourselves in the awareness, right?

Like, do you agree that like so many people.

Look at, I've gotta go out and take action right now.

And I'm not in any way saying, Don't take action.

Don't do anything in the world.

I'm also saying that awareness is a very powerful thing and we

don't always appreciate that or understand the impact of that.

Oh yeah, a hundred percent agree with this because I feel

like sometimes in a therapy session, I'm like holding up the big neon

sign of like, this is the message.

It's the self-awareness.

Like this is gonna change everything.

And for like, really?

Okay.

You know?

I know, but now what?

And it's like, But the knowing.

It was something that you most likely didn't have before.

And without the knowing and the consciousness and the awareness, it's

like there is not that ability to understand and shift or change or bring

in compassion cuz you realize, oh, that's, it's not a personal failure.

Like this is a really big shift in the culture that I'm in.

Or I'm, you know, in a position where, Traditionally as a woman or

as a woman of color or as you know, someone who traditionally hasn't

had power within the system, I'm being affected in a certain way.

And, and being able to understand that context can then help you develop

understanding and strategy and, and then possibly bring in support to be like,

Hey, this isn't just me, that this is happening to, This is happening to a

lot of different people in this system.

So like, what's wrong here that we can change?

. You know, and I think that, that's a part of our human development is to

constantly get curious about what is it that amplifies our development?

What is it that's impeding our development?

And realize that all of us do have different levels of privilege or different

levels of, Agency within systems, you know, and in asking yourself, am I

going to, because I have more power than this system, I'm a founder,

you know, within the startup space.

So I'm creating a company in which I have a lot of agency

and creating a very inclusive.

Structure or creating a system that isn't about exhaustion at all cost, you know, or

this whole like, hustle mentality that's creating a lot of mental health harm.

You know, it's like, so where's your agency?

As you become more and more aware of the systemic, influences, where's

your agency to do something, to create a more positive structure?

Just something that you've dreamed would be possible, what

would that mean to create that kind of system in, in the world?

So there's, I guess I'm just distinguishing to the agency that happens.

You can create a new structure or a system also by, in being

more aware of how you do that.

And then you can also, be an advocate within an existing system.

I mean, look at our, our educational system.

Um, you see a lot of, educational reform coming from students and

parents themselves, so it's not.

that.

The people up at the very top are reforming the systems.

It's the people that are unfortunately not served by those systems, and they start to

push back and, you know, for, for change.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, being aware of the bigger context allows us to make

decisions that keep that in mind, right?

Like, you know, so often we make these kind of siloed decisions, right?

, cuz we're making decisions every day, we're making tons of decisions.

Our decisions impact our long-term plans, our decisions impact what we contribute.

Our, you know, our decisions impact so many different things, right?

So we kind of all get that and know that.

And oftentimes they're, they're kind of siloed into, you know,

just what's in front of us, right?

So, you know, it's us, it's our day.

Maybe it's our family.

But I think when we are, we're holding a broader context of

things, then we make more conscious decisions that hold that as well.

And that's where I think that self-awareness is so key when we

understand just to kind of bring this kind of back down to the ground for a

second there, you know, I was listening to someone the other day, um, in Chem in

Deo, who is just really, really amazing and she, she sort of mentioned, Picture

and, and it just really hit home to me.

She said, Okay, imagine there's a bridge and I'm paraphrasing,

obviously imagine there's a bridge and there's a hole in the bridge, right?

And you know, people are walking across, they're falling into the water down below.

Now, as healers or therapists or self developers or leaders

or trainers, you know, we're pulling people out of the water.

Right.

And we keep pulling people outta the water and we keep

pulling people outta the water.

That's that, all that individual work we're doing, we keep

pulling people outta the water.

But like people keep falling in , right?

Because the bridge has a hole in it.

So at what point do we recognize that the bridge needs to be fixed rather than

just the people pulled outta the water?

And it, it does have to be both, right?

You know?

And this and that.

But I think that that was such a great image for me to really recognize like,

ah, you know, the bridges, the systems, the bridge is, what we're creating in a

bigger context that keeps contributing to trauma, that keeps contributing to

people needing to have individual healing.

Right?

And, and when do we fix the systems that are the cause?

And not just put all the burden on the individual to heal themselves,

and that really hit home for me.

Yes.

Oh yeah.

I love that illustration.

I mean, that really points it out.

It's like we could all just be individually trying to get

back out or help each other, but then that whole continues.

And I think that, you know, this was one of the things that we

saw during Covid that really.

Changed us you know, it changed our development.

It changed what we thought was possible prior to covid.

These systems were unmovable.

Like there's just so many systems that we just looked at and thought

there's just no way there's ever gonna be changes, is gonna take

hundreds and thousands of years.

But what was interesting is that pattern interrupt.

Of Covid creating a response that was so immediate and so universal of like

shutting down airports and, everyone going home and not working from the

office and like all of these big moving systems, like all of these things where

we had been walking around those holes and falling into holes and everyone was

like, There's nothing we can do about it.

Nothing we can do about.

And then all of a sudden, you know, having that global pandemic

and, having to everyone mobilize.

It was really interesting to see what could happen.

Oh really?

We could just stop that.

We could just say, Yep, no traveling or no going to work, or everyone wearing a mask.

And, you know, it's just interesting.

I think that that has opened a lot of people's eyes to the fact that change.

Can happen in a really short amount of time and at a very large scale.

And yes, that also just exposed lots of more holes too.

And, you know, um, so it wasn't a, a pattern interrupt that all of a sudden

we, we have all the solutions now, but I think it opened a lot of people's

eyes and their consciousness to what can happen if we have to do, really drastic.

Change.

And I think that there are a lot of advocates in the world that are

trying to speak to, like, these are the holes, these are the holes,

these, you know, the social justice and inequality and all these things.

Like, can we please like, not, let's not just close our eyes and keep marching.

Like, let's really understand.

and I think to your point, This is where the bidirectional piece is really

important because yes, the system can change and we all need to be looking

at that, and we're more adept at seeing the holes when we're doing the

personal work within ourselves as well.

As we raise our awareness and our consciousness, then we can

see the things within the system that we want to see different.

We want to change or shift.

So it's so important that both things are occurring.

Yes.

And you know, I think what's really important to acknowledge too, and

this thread is that, as humans, one of the thing that's really

important is right, is that we have this inherent need to belong, right?

So that's, that's one kind of one piece of it.

And we also, in order to be whole, in order to be healthy and thriving humans,

we need to have a sense of spirituality.

Now, when I say spirituality, I'm not talking about religion.

I'm not even talking about woo woo spirituality.

I'm, I'm talking about a sense that we are part of something bigger, right?

Part of something beyond ourselves.

And so that can be nature, right?

That can be the land, that can be spirit, that can be any number of things.

But we actually require that as humans to thrive.

And so, if we're not taking into account the context that we live in,

then, we are missing out on something.

If we always just kind of see ourselves in this small space or ourselves in

this small world, we're missing out on something that's very important for our

human happiness, for our human joy, right?

This, this ability to belong to something bigger than ourselves and

to, to notice and be aware that, that there is something bigger.

And I think that that's important in this topic because.

A lot of times we don't take into context the bigger picture or the

bigger things that are influencing us, and that can be good or bad, right?

Nature is a bigger thing that influences us, right?

If we were more connected to the land, and this is something, you know,

again, to be more aware of, if we were more connected to the land, we would

have this more grounded ability just to feel that bigger picture, right?

To feel.

That sort of spiritual connection.

And so there's all these things that I think we have to broaden

our view to recognize the context of, of us in a bigger system.

And I think when we do that, we're we're able to reclaim pieces of

ourselves that we've ignored.

Right.

So, you know, this reclaiming of self.

We've spent a lot of time, I think, on this podcast talking about that individual

component and you know, how to reclaim our power and how to reclaim ourselves.

And that's so important in this journey.

And recognizing we're part of something bigger, whether good or bad, right?

Or both.

Right?

And both, Helps us reclaim something as well.

Being able to reclaim our place in things, being able to reclaim our

culture, being able to reclaim.

how we organize ourselves, where we fit right there.

There's all these pieces that I think we have to take into account.

And so, you know, this is a, an exploratory conversation, right?

There's no definitive way to do this.

It's just that.

I think we have to talk about this more, bring this up more in our

conversations that it isn't just us in a silo, it's us in the world and we

have to kind of navigate and reflect on and understand our connection to it

all instead of just kind of focusing on our, you know, just reclaiming

ourself and our individual self.

That there is a broader picture here that we need to reclaim.

I know for myself in some of the work I've done, particularly in.

racism and white supremacy, like starting to look at those pieces in myself, right?

Being white, being a white woman.

Being, middle class, being American, right.

You know, understanding the context in which I've lived, the context

in which I contribute to, right?

and understanding all of that has helped me to broaden my view, make different

choices, heal on levels that I didn't even think I needed to heal on and reclaim.

Things that were really important part of my whole self.

And so that's what this conversation is about, is looking at things

from a different perspective so that we're able to kind of broaden

our view of what we're reclaiming.

Yes.

Yes.

And back to what you had said earlier, and with that awareness

comes choice and change.

You know, and I think that that's what I really hear you leading this whole

conversation with is this is about.

The awareness, the broadening the awareness from just the individual, you

know, to all of these interdimensional components between us and the

systems and between other people.

And you know, especially like there are now more people saying, Okay, I

do need to get into therapy or do need to have more personal, development

or insight or understanding, you know, and you can kind of go.

Too far in that direction of just like, thinking of yourself within this vacuum

and yet the place making of like, where are you and how do you belong and what,

which, which communities and how does that system, and how does, you know, how

do all of these things impact who we are and what are those ripple effects of us

shifting who we are individually , how does that affect across the systems?

And then how do those systems continue to, Possibly support our return and

reclaim, or how do they impede our desire?

? And there's, you know, what's really interesting in, the field of psychology,

when I'm sitting with clients, like, I'm often thinking about, you

know, what are those legacy burdens that my clients are caring from?

You know, their family systems generational, so many generations before.

And there's really interesting stories, you know, where people will have

memories of, um, or feelings of things that they were never explicitly told.

but it's like the, this family emotional inheritance or

this legacy that's passed on.

So all of these different, Things are also, so the systems have very

explicit messaging and explicit values, and then there's also all of these

implicit, you know, well, I don't know.

I've always done it that way.

Or that's how my family's always, talked about feelings or have we,

how we've addressed conflict or how we just see the world as, as either

welcoming or, or threatening, you know, and, and just all of these different.

That are a part of our larger systems that, you know, we can't ignore how

powerful those influences are on who we are developing and becoming as humans.

Yeah.

And if you look at it, I mean, so much of the individual healing and the

individual work we're doing is related to how we were impacted by bigger.

I've been reading this really great book, um, by Stacy Haynes

called The Politics of Trauma.

Yes.

I love

Stacy Kanes.

Yeah, I

haven't read that book, but I love her teachings.

Yeah.

It's such a great book, and she talks a little bit in

there about like the sites of trauma,

Mm-hmm.

you know, she has this great model for looking at how there's

like this individual, you know, the individual site in which we experience

trauma or something happens to us, but then how we're affected by all

of the bigger circles, if you will.

Right?

So there's, you know, family institutions, you know, all, all of these things that.

Are constantly impacting us, we're impacting them, right?

Is this bidirectional relationship.

But if we don't understand that bigger context, you know, we're not able to

really address the healing in a way, like we can only heal so much in the silo, or

we can only heal so much on an individual level without taking into context things

that are affecting us on a daily basis.

And I think about this a lot, you know, of course with.

People who are in traumatic situations nonstop, right?

, whether that's like domestic violence or racism, right?

Like, you know, anyone who is, is involved in our world, , that has

a different colored skin, they're constantly navigating racism.

And so there's the trauma happening all the time.

There's no escaping it, there's no getting rid of it.

There's no.

abandoning it.

And so, you know, how do we navigate these systems so that we understand

There is just, there's this huge context and I think, you know,

definitely I know for me as a white person, the more that I am becoming

aware of all of this context, right?

The more I am navigating my own contribution to things, the more

I'm seeing the bigger picture.

The more conscious I'm able to be, the more choices I'm able

to make that make a better world.

Right.

And I mean, that's endless.

Like there's so many more things I could do.

There's so many more things we all could do, but I think,

it's all about understanding.

It really starts with the awareness about what's happening outside of us and how

systems are influencing us and you know, what that looks like and how we can.

Reclaim our own values because you know, I think as part of this conversation, I

think one of the other really key points is that often we are operating from

influences outside ourselves and it's very unconscious and it's often even misaligned

with our values, and yet we don't know, we're operating, we're practicing.

Every day in, things that are misaligned with our values, right?

And so if we're not aware of that, if we're not understanding those influences,

then we are, we stay unconscious about all the ways that we are doing things

that are misaligned with our values.

And so I think that's a really important conversation piece here too.

Yeah.

And I mean, it's.

. Interesting.

Like you said, there's so many layers and we can continue to

become more and more aware.

But what it all kind of comes down to for me is how powerful that

awareness is for self-compassion and compassion towards others.

And you know, one of the three tenets of compassion being just understanding

things as a part of the human condit.

like this is a part of the human condition that we exist within,

all of these different systems in that when we're struggling, maybe

it's not like, Oh, something's wrong with me, but oh, something's

happening to me here in this context.

Like I.

Am a person who has less power or privilege here or I have more power

or privilege here and you know how that affects the way we see ourselves.

Cause I think that that is, you know, what I'm always working with in the therapy

room with clients is a moving away from.

This just what's wrong with me?

And this critical voice of like, I'm just a failure for some reason I can't

do this, or I can't make inroads, or I'll never be happy or figure this out.

And it's like just being able to position that human angst within the bigger picture

of like, Look, this is hard for everyone.

Right.

And I think that that's another thing that's kind of happened during the

Global Pandemic is there's been more.

Understanding of, there's a lot of suffering and there's a lot of,

discontent and there's a lot of fear and there's a lot of, you know, so how

do we just understand how the systems are perpetuating that, or, you know,

what I can do on an individual level to feel like I've got a sense of power

reclaiming my power, or being able to support others who have less power.

So, I mean, like you said, this is a really big conversation, but I like

bringing it back to the illustration you shared of just, you know,

are we gonna keep walking across.

Falling in the holes and picking each other up, or do at some point

we pull back and say, Oh, like there's a lot of holes in the system.

There's a lot of ways in which people are being harmed.

And I wonder what we could do to, to point these out to, to repair, to, to just bring

conscious awareness to the fact that you, you're not, somehow doing something wrong.

You just You had to walk across that hole.

Yeah.

And I, and I think, you know, like I have like so many threads I wanna

pull, so it's always like hard to be like, Okay, which one do I pull for?

But you know, I think, I know for myself, I feel like I'm a, a fairly

resilient, you know, I definitely define as a survivor, right?

I've been through a lot in my life and I feel like, you

know, I have done it on my own.

I have survived on my own, and I think for a lot of high, high achievers and

also survivors, We can sort of identify with this self development or this

transformation as all personal, right?

As all.

Like, I can do it, I'm gonna do it on my own.

Like we can actually disconnect from the relational component, right?

But you know, the more I learn about myself, the more I learn

about our humanity, our psychology, our neuroscience, right?

All of these things, the more I recognize.

we as humans are relational.

Everything is relational.

We don't become who we are because of just ourselves, right?

We become who we are because of our relationships, whether that's to the

world, to society, to our workplace, to our friends, to our family.

And so it's really relational.

And I think in the self development world, a lot of us

have kind of made it all personal.

Like we can just empower ourselves.

We can just, go off and do what we need to do to be empowered and wonderful.

And, that's true.

And like, , everything is relational and we can't ignore the impact that

our relationships have had to us or the impact that we have to the world, right?

So there's this like huge relational component that I feel

like, you know, hasn't been.

Brought up are talked about enough in these kind of transformational

self development circles, and I think it's a really important

topic that we need to be having.

It's also why a lot of self development can ignore or bypass the social

injustices that are happening.

Because it's all about the individual.

It's, they're not taking into context the bigger picture of

what we're all contributing to.

And really a lot of self-development is for the privileged, right?

It's for the privilege.

It's often, co-opting, other cultures and other things that

are happening in the world.

And so there, this is like a, now that's like really like a whole

conversation in and of itself.

But the other kind of thread I wanted to pull really briefly

is when you talked about.

the more context and awareness we have of the systems, the more empathy we can have.

And I think that is a really important piece because we do have

more self-compassion on ourselves when we recognize we've been impacted

by systems beyond our control.

And we do have more empathy with others when we realize

they've been impacted by systems.

And I think about this a lot, um, sometimes with my husband.

it's easy as like, you know, I'm a very passionate, you know, woman who,

you know, wants gender equality is always fought for gender equality.

Like there's a, there's a lot of stuff.

And so I can easily, you know, kind of look at white entitled men, right?

kind of have this perspective that, oh, well they have all the

privilege, they need to, you know, kind of take it down a peg or two.

They need to.

More humility.

And then as I, recognize that they are also very, very impacted and influenced

by the system that often who they become, and this entitled or this privilege is

what has been given to them from this.

System.

it doesn't excuse the personal responsibility we have in anything,

but it does allow me to have more empathy, you know, for my husband or

for, you know, white men, that they are also influenced and involved in

a system that continues to perpetuate all of those attitudes and feelings

and, you know, roles and identities.

and it allows me to have so much more compassion for everyone.

And I think, again, it's an intersection.

We're talking about both individual transformation and a bigger picture

society, social justice, organizational transformation, and we're talking

about personal responsibility.

And also understanding that there is influences that are unconscious influences

that are, powerful for every person.

So, it's this juxtaposition.

It's this, it's this connection.

It's this wholeness that I feel like we have to broaden our perspective

to so that it's not either or.

Yes, it is the, And , as you talked about

earlier, it is the interaction, the interdependency, the relational

component of what it means to be human.

And that yes, we are not sitting over here in a silo, just an individual person.

Not being impacted by all of the relationships and all of the messages.

And and some of these things we've internalized, you know, is like,

Oh, I'm a part of that system and, and so that makes me good.

Or I'm not a part of that system, so that makes me bad.

You know, there's all these ways which we've internalized, um,

messages about our value, and yet, Those things can be, explored and

those things can be continued.

Some of those relational components we wanna have, The positive that comes with

those systems, but we also, we have to be aware of, of all the different messages.

And if you're feeling stuck in your individual reclaiming, then that might

be a time to be like, What are the.

Systemic influences on me right now that might not be supporting the

direction that I wanna grow, you know, go into, or that I'm trying to grow.

So just becoming aware.

And then how do you find more supportive systems that are, going

to reflect back your values or support you going in that direction,

And I think that's ultimately the thing, right, is

that as we become more aware, we wanna be making choices that are

more in alignment with our values.

And I know for myself, particularly in some of the social justice work that

I've been doing, or in some of the reflection on my own racism, One of the

things that I've recognized is that, I make a lot of unconscious decisions,

right, that impact other people.

And I make a lot of unconscious decisions that don't support people, but

supporting people in all people, right?

Is very aligned with my values, and yet I'm operating in these bigger systems

with very indoctrinated beliefs or ideas or thoughts or behaviors that

are, have influenced me my whole life.

, and I'm not conscious of them.

And so the more conscious I am of things, and this is an endless process, right?

I don't ever think I'll be fully conscious of it all.

But the more conscious I am, the more ability I am to make decisions that

align with my values that have more impact and support for all people.

And so I think that's the piece.

It's this awareness.

That we are part of something bigger that reclaiming ourselves

cannot just be about reclaiming our individual self, but is reclaiming

ourself in the context of things.

And when we can do that, there's even more growth, there's even more

transformation, and we open up a relational, bidirectional, piece

of our lives that is actually very, very important in this work.

A hundred percent agree.

I'm grateful for this conversation cuz hopefully it's just, you know,

listeners are thinking about all of the different intersections between

them themselves individually, and the systems that they, exist within.

Yeah, and I mean, some of the questions that, you know, I do

this individual work cuz you know, we have the power to do individual work, right?

So, in my individual work, some of the self-awareness and questions

I ask myself is how am am I influenced by these bigger processes?

Like, how am I influenced by being, the white privilege?

System.

Right?

You know, like, how have I been influenced in that way?

Um, how have I been influenced by being American, right?

How have I been influenced by being in, in like a self development circles, right?

I've been in a lot of self development circles.

How has that influenced me?

How has that impacted me?

How have I been, been being in business circles, right?

So that's some of the work I've done as well.

Like, you know, having a business for 22 years, what does it feel like

to have been in business circles?

What, how.

Influence the way they think, the way that I operate, the way that I work.

And so we can start to ask these questions of like, how have these

systems influenced me so that we start to recognize more of that

context and more of that relationship.

I

So, Yay.

Well, thank you all for joining us today.

I hope this was just a conversation that planted some seeds, right?

Maybe brought a different perspective, but I think it's a very important conversation

we need to be having a lot more of.

So thank you for joining us and we will see you next week.

I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of reclaiming ourselves, looking

for a speaker for your organization, or wanna dive deeper into the

process of reclaiming yourself.

I would love an opportunity to work with you.

You can find more about my services, read articles and listen to all of my

podcast episodes@sonyastattmann.com Have an amazing day.

And thanks for listening.